Topic: Mot query

[Mr Rizla]

Think i know the answer but if you dont ask the question....

OK, Theoretical Situation

My bike has a current mot which runs out the end in about a week. I decided yesterday to mot the bike a few days early and all is ok bar a few items that need corrected before it can pass.

So the question is.. is my bike road legal? my brain says it cant be legal as the "latest" test has failed, even on a few minor points. If i was stoped by PC Plod id try and use the existing mot certificate but i do believe that as soon as any vehicle is tested its resaults are auto uploaded to dvla.

comments, suggestions on a sealed down envelop...

ps hypothetical as said, my bikes all legal (if you dont look at exhaust)

[Darkmonster]

I know that it used to be if you took it in for a 'pre test inspection'  and the old one hadn't expired, then you were still OK...Having owned a lot of rusty old piles of junk, I'd always run em through a good week or so early, every extra day helped   Tho if they passed, the certificate would be issued starting the day the old one expired.

[Wildcat]

Your old MOT is still valid, but that doesn't stop you from being nicked for the defect(s) if they are spotted by plod, and they're dangerous, ie you can be done for riding a vehicle that is unfit, but they can't nick you for riding without an MOT.

[Mr Rizla]

'> theory standing up, so far, where's that Pan abuser

[scorps]

now mot are all computerised you will find that if you get stopped it will come up that it hasnt got a valid mot i think you will find the new one cancels out the old one thats what i was told by the ministry anyway

[Mr Rizla]

Quote (scorps @ Oct. 09 2008,18:24)

now mot are all computerised you will find that if you get stopped it will come up that it hasnt got a valid mot i think you will find the new one cancels out the old one thats what i was told by the ministry anyway

that was my take on the issue however lets see what else turns up '>

[TallGuy]

Pan man back from his travels so here goes.... The MOT is a record of roadworthyness (legal compliance) at the time of the test. The vehicle must be subject to a test every 12 months (or sooner). An MOT can not be used as evidence that a vehicle is roadworthy during this 12 month period. The mater of roadworthness is determined by the condition of the vehicle at the specific point in time.

If during the 12 months from obtaining an MOT a vehicle is retested and faults are found these do not shorten the period of validity for the original MOT. They do however get recorded on the MOT computer system and as such are a record of the vehicle condition as being unroadworthy (or not legally compliant). Additionally as the person presenting the vehicle for MOT receives a copy of these defects it can be used in evidence that the driver of the vehicle was aware of said defects.

Most motering offences are absolute anyway so whether you knew of the defect or not is irrelevant as the driver is responsible for ensure that the vehicle is legally compliant before the commencement of each journey. Knowingly using a vehicle which is unroadworthy is a secondary issue. Only if the vehicle was involved in an incident would such things as DVLA MOT record be examined. Having said that there are plans to link more details about the MOT into the ANPR system which currently just checks that it is in date.

[naughty lee]

there you go...your old MOT is still valid.
Heres another scenario.
you buy a bike, no tax or test on it.

you trailer it home and start getting it ready for test.
Once ready, you insure it, then you book it in for a test.

It still has no tax or test but you CAN ride it on the road to the arranged garage provided that you have got an appointment booked for an MOT test.

If the bike fails its test, you can ride it home legally with no tax or MOT cert AND you can also ride it to a place where repairs will be carried out to get it MOT ready, if that happens to be your or your mates garage you can still ride it there without tax or a valid MOT cert.

All the time you are riding it though its highly likely you will get a tug, best not to kick the arse out of it too much  '>

[TallGuy]

Quote (naughty lee @ Jan. 03 2009,18:08)

It still has no tax or test but you CAN ride it on the road to the arranged garage provided that you have got an appointment booked for an MOT test. If the bike fails its test, you can ride it home legally with no tax or MOT cert AND you can also ride it to a place where repairs will be carried out to get it MOT ready, if that happens to be your or your mates garage you can still ride it there without tax or a valid MOT cert. All the time you are riding it though its highly likely you will get a tug, best not to kick the arse out of it too much  '>

You can only ride the bike to the MOT if you beleive it to be road legal. Why else would you be taking it for an MOT if it wasn't. But this aside the roadworthness of the bike is independant of the limited cover provided by a booked MOT and as such is a matter of fact at the time of being stoped or having an accident.

When a vehicle fails an MOT, it is in almost every case no longer road legal and the rider is informed of this by being provided by a fail certificate. They would now be knowingly using an unroadworthy vehicle on the road.

If the rider is stopped riding after a failed MOT and is shown to have no MOT then they are looking at £200 and 3pts. If they admit to riding it from a failed MOT then it gets worse.

Advice, find a friend with a trailer or only ride it to the MOT, but never ride it from a failed MOT unless the failure is trivial.

[MATTP]

No MOT over here (QLD) unless you are going to sell the car/bike. You see a lot of cars around here that are death traps and in a months time you will again see them on the road. While I'm sure that most think having an MOT every year is a waste of time for the person who looks after their bike/car, the time frame is better than NZ (every 6 months) and is better than none at all as I see this as a crash/death waiting to happen.

Maybe an answer to your question is to take the plate off the bike? Worked for someone I know when they were doing time runs to and from work '>

[naughty lee]

Quote (TallGuy @ Jan. 04 2009,14:57)

Quote (naughty lee @ Jan. 03 2009,18:08) It still has no tax or test but you CAN ride it on the road to the arranged garage provided that you have got an appointment booked for an MOT test. If the bike fails its test, you can ride it home legally with no tax or MOT cert AND you can also ride it to a place where repairs will be carried out to get it MOT ready, if that happens to be your or your mates garage you can still ride it there without tax or a valid MOT cert. All the time you are riding it though its highly likely you will get a tug, best not to kick the arse out of it too much  '> You can only ride the bike to the MOT if you beleive it to be road legal. Why else would you be taking it for an MOT if it wasn't. But this aside the roadworthness of the bike is independant of the limited cover provided by a booked MOT and as such is a matter of fact at the time of being stoped or having an accident. When a vehicle fails an MOT, it is in almost every case no longer road legal and the rider is informed of this by being provided by a fail certificate. They would now be knowingly using an unroadworthy vehicle on the road. If the rider is stopped riding after a failed MOT and is shown to have no MOT then they are looking at £200 and 3pts. If they admit to riding it from a failed MOT then it gets worse. Advice, find a friend with a trailer or only ride it to the MOT, but never ride it from a failed MOT unless the failure is trivial.

this is very grey, I know that a vehicle without a valid MOT can Be driven to a location to have work done, lets say tyres  and brakes are good but there is a fault with the brake light and the emissions are out, I would ride/drive to a place from a failed test.
hypothetical of course, I get all my tests done a month early for the 13 month ticket

[spinlondon]

Quote (TallGuy @ Jan. 04 2009,14:57)

When a vehicle fails an MOT, it is in almost every case no longer road legal and the rider is informed of this by being provided by a fail certificate. They would now be knowingly using an unroadworthy vehicle on the road. If the rider is stopped riding after a failed MOT and is shown to have no MOT then they are looking at £200 and 3pts. If they admit to riding it from a failed MOT then it gets worse. Advice, find a friend with a trailer or only ride it to the MOT, but never ride it from a failed MOT unless the failure is trivial.

Sorry have to disagree with this, as it's complete B*ll*x.
You may well be using an unroadworthy vehicle, but if the MOT was pre booked, then there would be no using a vehicle without an MOT offence.
If an Officer were to report someone in these circumstances, and the case were to go before the courts, I would expect the Officer to a right B*llicking from the Magistrates for wasting the court's time.
Incidentally, with the new computerized MOTs, if you take even a vehicle for it's first MOT in early. You will automatically get a 13 month MOT. You no longer have to take the old MOT with you.

[TallGuy]

Quote (spinlondon @ Jan. 22 2009,23:49)

Quote (TallGuy @ Jan. 04 2009,14:57) When a vehicle fails an MOT, it is in almost every case no longer road legal and the rider is informed of this by being provided by a fail certificate. They would now be knowingly using an unroadworthy vehicle on the road. If the rider is stopped riding after a failed MOT and is shown to have no MOT then they are looking at £200 and 3pts. If they admit to riding it from a failed MOT then it gets worse. Advice, find a friend with a trailer or only ride it to the MOT, but never ride it from a failed MOT unless the failure is trivial. Sorry have to disagree with this, as it's complete B*ll*x. You may well be using an unroadworthy vehicle, but if the MOT was pre booked, then there would be no using a vehicle without an MOT offence. If an Officer were to report someone in these circumstances, and the case were to go before the courts, I would expect the Officer to a right B*llicking from the Magistrates for wasting the court's time. Incidentally, with the new computerized MOTs, if you take even a vehicle for it's first MOT in early. You will automatically get a 13 month MOT. You no longer have to take the old MOT with you.

It would be wise as a newbie to know a bit more about the person whose knowledge on these matters you disagreeing with.

I have not stated that the offence would be using a vehicle without an MOT, I did say that it would be using a vehicle in an unroadworthy condition. There is a world of difference between the two as; a vehicle without an MOT may still be roadworthy but commits the offence of not having a valid MOT and for a vehicle that is unroadworthy the the presence or absence of an MOT is irrelevant.

[Mr Rizla]

i love a good banter '>, i'll have £20 on TG winning

[spinlondon]

I wouldn't consider you to be a newbie, as you've been on the forum a year longer than me.
You stated. "If the rider is stopped riding after a failed MOT and is shown to have no MOT then they are looking at £200 and 3pts. If they admit to riding it from a failed MOT then it gets worse." Perhaps you should be more clear in how you state what you mean?

[TallGuy]

Quote (spinlondon @ Jan. 23 2009,22:35)

I wouldn't consider you to be a newbie, as you've been on the forum a year longer than me. You stated. "If the rider is stopped riding after a failed MOT and is shown to have no MOT then they are looking at £200 and 3pts. If they admit to riding it from a failed MOT then it gets worse." Perhaps you should be more clear in how you state what you mean?

I think I need to because I also can't see how you thought I was referring to myself as a newbie either?

If a rider knowingly rides an unroadworthy motorcycle away from a MOT testing station having just failed and there is no current MOT in force then they may be considered for prosecution for not having an MOT, but will more likely be processed for the offence which makes the vehicle unroadworthy. Admitting knowledge of unroadworthness shows mens rea and would only make matters worse for the offender as although there is no defence of ignorance there is officer discretion if they beleive the offender has unwittingly committed an offence as opposed to knowingly comitted an offence.

Is that clear?

And as for the first MOT 13month duration statement that is not totally accurate as although you can take a vehicle for its first MOT at 35months and 1 day old you should not be issed with a certificate which finishes after the vehicle is 48 months old thus only giving 12 months of MOT as it does not become effective until the end of month 36.

[spinlondon]

I think I need to because I also can't see how you thought I was referring to myself as a newbie either?
Perhaps you could elucidate on how long a person should be a member of the forum, before you no longer consider them to be a newbie?

If a rider knowingly rides an unroadworthy motorcycle away from a MOT testing station having just failed and there is no current MOT in force then they may be considered for prosecution for not having an MOT, but will more likely be processed for the offence which makes the vehicle unroadworthy. Admitting knowledge of unroadworthness shows mens rea and would only make matters worse for the offender as although there is no defence of ignorance there is officer discretion if they beleive the offender has unwittingly committed an offence as opposed to knowingly comitted an offence.
As I said in my previous post.

And as for the first MOT 13month duration statement that is not totally accurate as although you can take a vehicle for its first MOT at 35months and 1 day old you should not be issed with a certificate which finishes after the vehicle is 48 months old thus only giving 12 months of MOT as it does not become effective until the end of month 36.
Don't worry, you are not the only Police officer (Assuming you are actually a Police officer) to beleive this. Perhaps it should be as you say. In reality however you will be given an MOT that starts on the day of the test, and expires the day before the 4th aniversary of the date of registration.

[naughty lee]

a nice healthy debate here despite a little friction  '>

ok, just to put a spin on it some more..

pc plod pulls me on monday cos his computer says my mot has run out, gives me a horty (7 day producer)
I get home to discover that my mot has in fact ran out.
oh shite.

I swiftly go over the bike checking for obvious faults and book it in for test the next day.
Tuesday the bike passes its test..I go home and get all my paperwork ready and head off to the nick.

I show my docs and the desk plod clocks the recent mot and asks for proof that the bike had a ticket on monday.

I confess that it had expired, now, technically I could be bounced for having no ticket..however  if the machine passed the following day, its difficult to prove it was unroadworthy the previous day...the outcome?
a caution I recon

[Wildcat]

How long had it been expired? I doubt they'll bother to nick you.

I recently went to get a year's tax (on the first day of the month) with an MOT which expired the next day. The woman behind the counter in the post office got all shirty about it and was trying to insist that I go and get a new MOT. I had quite a row with her - my MOT was valid on the day the tax started, surely it was sod all to do with them whether it expired the folowing day or 300 days later. She did eventually give me the tax, but she was absolutely furious at having to do it. I thought she was going to explode.

[Biker Biker]

same thing happened to me Wildcat...... so I tried to do it online and that didn't want to give me a tax disk either.  Its really difficult getting the MOT, Tax and insurance to all tie up within the same time.

[TallGuy]

Quote (naughty lee @ Jan. 27 2009,05:23)

I confess that it had expired, now, technically I could be bounced for having no ticket..however  if the machine passed the following day, its difficult to prove it was unroadworthy the previous day...the outcome? a caution I recon

There would be no requirement to prove the vehicle was unroadworthy on the Monday as the offence was Using, Causing or Permitting Use of Vehicle without Test Certificate - Road Traffic Act s.47(1) the punishment for this has recently been amended and can be dealt with by way of a fixed penaly ticket.

I would say that discretion could be employed at this point (although the government are trying hard to take this away from us) but over how long a period would the offence be permitted?

It is extreamly common for people to turn up to the station with a brand new MOT or tax disc or insurance certificate claiming it was on oversight and they had never intended to use a non-legally compliant vehicle. In a lot of cases it is just because they have been caught they sought their act out.

[TallGuy]

Quote (Wildcat @ Jan. 27 2009,09:22)

How long had it been expired? I doubt they'll bother to nick you. I recently went to get a year's tax (on the first day of the month) with an MOT which expired the next day. The woman behind the counter in the post office got all shirty about it and was trying to insist that I go and get a new MOT. I had quite a row with her - my MOT was valid on the day the tax started, surely it was sod all to do with them whether it expired the folowing day or 300 days later. She did eventually give me the tax, but she was absolutely furious at having to do it. I thought she was going to explode.

If by nicking you mean arrest, then no, as it is not proportinate for the offence. A fine however would be the most likely outcome with the option to plead before a court.

With regard to the Post Office clerk, I had that about 3 year hence and due to the number of vehicle I own I was a frequent visitor sometimes taxing more than one vehicle at a time which confused them as they were all listed on the one policy. I did have a teller refuse to issue a tax disc because the MOT expired the day after the Tax started stating that there must be 14 days MOT remaining after the start of Tax. I told her that she was wrong and would be reported to the Postmaster General if she failed to comply with her legal obligations. I was then told that I would not be served and should leave the post office. I went to the other post office in town and taxed the vehicles no problem. Thank goodness it's only a computer I have to deal with now, because they don't make mistakes do they?

[naughty lee]

Quote (TallGuy @ Jan. 27 2009,20:20)

Quote (Wildcat @ Jan. 27 2009,09:22) How long had it been expired? I doubt they'll bother to nick you. I recently went to get a year's tax (on the first day of the month) with an MOT which expired the next day. The woman behind the counter in the post office got all shirty about it and was trying to insist that I go and get a new MOT. I had quite a row with her - my MOT was valid on the day the tax started, surely it was sod all to do with them whether it expired the folowing day or 300 days later. She did eventually give me the tax, but she was absolutely furious at having to do it. I thought she was going to explode. If by nicking you mean arrest, then no, as it is not proportinate for the offence. A fine however would be the most likely outcome with the option to plead before a court. With regard to the Post Office clerk, I had that about 3 year hence and due to the number of vehicle I own I was a frequent visitor sometimes taxing more than one vehicle at a time which confused them as they were all listed on the one policy. I did have a teller refuse to issue a tax disc because the MOT expired the day after the Tax started stating that there must be 14 days MOT remaining after the start of Tax. I told her that she was wrong and would be reported to the Postmaster General if she failed to comply with her legal obligations. I was then told that I would not be served and should leave the post office. I went to the other post office in town and taxed the vehicles no problem. Thank goodness it's only a computer I have to deal with now, because they don't make mistakes do they?

PMSL, Im glad your here TG to keep us all on the straight and narrow... well, i say us all...everyone apart from Richard, he is such a naughty boy  '>

[TallGuy]

Quote (naughty lee @ Jan. 30 2009,22:45)

PMSL, Im glad your here TG to keep us all on the straight and narrow... well, i say us all...everyone apart from Richard, he is such a naughty boy  '>

Thankyou ... I think '>
My task is to prevent deviation from legal compliance (crime) by whatever legal means are at my disposal. I choose education as it is unreasonable to expect everybody to know the full ins and outs of lawfull compliance brought about by statue law where even judges have a hard time reaching the 'correct' decision.

As for you slur on another member of this fourm I think the pot calling the kettle black springs to mind after;

PC: Naked man on Chelsea Bridge wheeling on a blade.  
Control: All units... ARV on standby.. man seen on Chelsea Bridge weilding a blade .... naked.... possible mental patient.
PC: Clarification of last message man is on a fire blade riding with front wheel up in the air.
Control: Trumpton on route man is now on fire... writhing pointing blade up in air.
PC: Stand down all units, situation under control. Man is getting dressed no further danger. Male is xxxx from xxxx.
Control: All received. Result code ... Northern monkey antics.

 

[Mr Rizla]

u notice the southern monkey has been abnormaly quiet recently, wonder what he's been up to