Author Topic: Open for debate, dirty tactis or good policing (Read 2260 times)

Burger · « **on:** 04, October, 2008, 12:51:28 AM »

Shamelessly ripped from another biking site but well worth a debate or two me thinks.

The story,

speeding Biker

The video

The video

Word is this chap is a club racer, it says on another forum that Mr collins (chap on GSXR) even pulled over for fuel and the copper stopped in a lay by up the road to wait for him, footage edited not to show that!

I have to say Im not impressed with the coppers riding skills, suprised that the police officer followed him through two counties, decided not to pull him over after the first offense and was shocked at some of the blatant leming leapes to keep up with the offender. The officer almost had a head on with another biker trying to keep up at one point breaking the law on several occasions and endangered people doing it. If I was a 22 year old lad on a GSXR and saw some one right up my chuff for 30 miles Id put start putting some darkies down and some space between us thats what we do, it now seems the police like to ride unmarked bikes, goad you into going quicker, when you go quick they continue to sit on your arse and then they film you some more whilst they carry out reckless over takes trying to continue goading you. World gone mad, Im almost sure that lad would not have ridden like that if some other bloke on a bike was not following so close behind.

I dont think the police should be proud of this and posting it all over the web, they know (I would say 60% ) sportsbike riders would wind on if they saw someone in their tail view so why do they do it, also the officer right at the start of the video says,

" this chap is riding at high speed although he's not very competent"

Ok, so the officer has just made an assessment that this rider is riding beyond his ability yet he is allowed to continue pursuing him gathering information even though he is potentially putting this lads and others on the road at risk. Crazy, absolutly mad, he had his details, he should have refrained from goading him into more high speed pursuit and caught up with him at home, much safer.

Open for debate!

P.S the guy riding the GSXR is a total plonker and to be fair he was gonna get nicked very very very soon or end up in wheel chair.

MATTP · « **Reply #1 on:** 04, October, 2008, 05:05:40 AM »

Quote (Burger @ Oct. 04 2008,00:51)

World gone mad, Im almost sure that lad would not have ridden like that if some other bloke on a bike was not following so close behind.

This is the key point here I feel. I'm taking the leap of faith here that the police out there on bikes are a lot smarter than the pencil pushing twits back in the office. This cop should have known (as he says here 'this chap is riding at high speed although he's not very competent' ) that he was putting the life of the rider and those around him in danger when he already had his information and could at anytime stopped the chase and just driven back to the guys house to wait for him. I feel a little bit of BS glory hunting was going on by the winker on the cop bike. Shame, as if he had have crashed his bike while pushing on to keep up with the lad on the Gixxer and had of hurt anyone other than himself I'd be 100% behind this person being sent to jail for taking the choice of putting the life of others around them in direct danger. Just because you have a cop badge, it does not make you anymore important than the rest of us!

Grandma · « **Reply #2 on:** 04, October, 2008, 06:46:13 AM »

This is on several forums, general consenus is that chase went on too long, rider should have stopped a lot earlier, smacks of entrapment. I agree that ride was dangerous from both riders, I am afraid plod have not done themselves any favours ':p'

Thank goodness no-one was hurt, more by luck than judgement!

eezyrida · « **Reply #3 on:** 04, October, 2008, 08:18:32 AM »

Totally agree. It's almost as if the police biker, whose skill seems not much better than the offender's, was enjoying this and using this as an excuse for a blast himself. It seems to me likely that if he wasn't riding like that, then the other guy wouldn't have done many of the things he did.

Ok the 22 year old was bang to rights as he could have simply let the unmarked bike go past, but there is an unfairness about all this as it seems the offender was, as Burger says, encouraged to offend and when things were getting silly nothing was done by the police to end the obvious risk to other road users.

As a result of this I now feel my own safety is at risk in this force's area if their policy is to encourage people to commit dangerous crimes!

It's a bit like leaving a loaded .44 magnum lying around in a shopping centre and seeing who would pick it up, then letting them play with it for a couple of hours before arresting him.

pieman · « **Reply #4 on:** 04, October, 2008, 10:29:32 AM »

Sorry but if I had someone trying to keep up behind me that I didn't know I'd let them past, I don't want them learning the perfect lines into my corners!! Testosterone is a dangerous thing. If it was someone I knew however......

It is weird why he followed him for so long. I thought the police were there to stop people from injuring themselves, once he'd seen the 100mph+ and a wheelie and the overtaking on double whites why not pull him, that's plenty to keep him off the roads for a while.
My big problem with the riding apart from the speed is that the A21 is quite narrow and those double whites are there for a reason, not like on the A272 where you have plenty of view and they seem pointless. Apart from that I've seen loads of people ride similar rides at only slightly lower speeds on a Sunday rideout.
He didn't get his knee down on that roundabout like some people did when we went to Rye though did he!!!

Mr Rizla · « **Reply #5 on:** 04, October, 2008, 10:31:39 AM »

Would be interesting to get feedback of the video from PFM but i dont think he visits us much

'>

Alba · « **Reply #6 on:** 04, October, 2008, 11:06:08 AM »

i didnt see anything i wouldnt have done myself especially having other bikers behind me. at no point i thought the guy in front was making a bad/dangerous overtakings has he had plenty of space in my opinion. speed limit is the speed limit, i cant argue with that but he seems very competent and didnt see any emergency breaking at any point.
the cop on the other hand...i think he must have been pissed off mostly because he lost him several times!!! not counting the times when he absolutely soiled himself trying to keep up (colleague on the radio: are you ok mate?)

'>

i found most hilarious when the bloke he was chasing took the roundabout at 50/60mph and he coulnd follow at more than 25...

STEM-VFR · « **Reply #7 on:** 04, October, 2008, 02:19:38 PM »

This is strange..... but I totally agree with Burger

'> .

If someone came up behind me and played tag I'd assume it was 'play time' as well. More to the point, a police inspector must have thought it was a good idea to release this video what was he or she thinking?

I would have thought that it was in the general interest of the public to teminate the ride as soon and as safely as posible. 10 minutes to stop a bike that wasn't trying to evade capture is complete bollox, nah this copper was out on a jolly.

Also because it was unmarked doesn't mean it didn't have blues n twos.

peckhamrose · « **Reply #8 on:** 04, October, 2008, 04:15:32 PM »

Quote (STEM-VFR @ Oct. 04 2008,14:19)

If someone came up behind me and played tag I'd assume it was 'play time' as well.

I wouldn't.
Is that a testosterone issue though?

TallGuy · « **Reply #9 on:** 04, October, 2008, 04:59:54 PM »

Interesting comments about the police causing the rider of the GSXR to ride fast. Does the rider of the GSXR not have responsability for their own actions? As for not thinking that the riding style of the GSXR was poor... his road positioning through corners was bad.

As for trying to stop the rider there are all sorts of hoops we need to jump through and it is likely that the police rider was trying to arrange a containment.

Burger · « **Reply #10 on:** 04, October, 2008, 10:14:00 PM »

Just read on Sussex police force website,

They say that they received lots of complaints over a period of time about this chap and this was a sting operation specifically targeted at him. The police say that they followed the individual for such a long time so that they could build an irrefutable case against him to the CPS, they have not included the fuel stop rumor but the lad in question was followed all the way to work which was a Suzuki Dealership in South London (presume its the one near or around the sidcup region ) and arrested him on site. Charged, kept over night and was in front of the magistrates the next day.

The police are advertising this to demonstrate their ability to record, react and prosecute on public calls for dangerous driving.

And Colin, Interesting comment about people being responsible for their own riding. Everyone knows their responsible for their own riding but you have to admit when your being pushed from your mirrors you do go a little quicker?

As for hoops, how many hoops would you have to jump through standing at a public inquest giving evidence witnessing this chaps death during pursuit, Im sure the sensible folk would like to do some linching.

'>

MATTP · « **Reply #11 on:** 04, October, 2008, 10:20:48 PM »

Quote (TallGuy @ Oct. 04 2008,16:59)

As for trying to stop the rider there are all sorts of hoops we need to jump through and it is likely that the police rider was trying to arrange a containment.

.....come on TallGuy, please take the hat off! :! ...... If you don't think that this cop was bang out of order for this "baiting", then I hope most cops don't mirror this thinking!

The guy had to wait everytime for the cop to catch up and how funny it was to listen to the cop and all his "magic words of wisdom!" And as for his road positioning through corners being bad, I'm not thinking we watched the same video. I noticed that in many corners the guy was taking it easy and there is no need to take a corner at 60 like you would at 100. Maybe something they need to tell cops when they are doing their training?

The Gixxer guy did many things wrong in this video, but at the same time I'd love to know how the police will get away from the easy reply to all this that he will supply 'I was riding like that to get away from a MAD MAN who I thought was going to jump me for my bike!' Due to the cop taking such a love affair with this chase I'd hope the person in charge of him reminds him that the police are there to keep other road users safe and not just enjoy a ride on a bike that us tax payers have supplied him with!

TallGuy · « **Reply #12 on:** 05, October, 2008, 12:26:34 AM »

Well I think I must have been watching something else to then, because if folks ride like that I'll be scraping a few more bodies off the road.

I must be of a completely different mind set too because how the heck can you say the rider was being pushed or baited? It wasn't as if the officer was in a car right up the arse of the rider preventing him from slowing down. All the rider needed to do was slow down, but no he didn't want to. There was nothing making him ride that fast other than his own desire to.

As for attempted bike jacking... Paah you having a laugh. How the heck can someone jack your bike when you're doing 130ish on the dual carriageway. Find a car, pull in front, anchor up and the following bike goes sailing past with no chance of turning around. And it has been evidenced that the actions of the rider were not as a result of being followed, he rode like that on several occasions before, hence the reason for the follow.

Slag the police service off all you like but until you work for them you have no idea what it takes to build a case against someone that some smart-arsed lawyer in CJD then throws out and they are on the prosecution side!

Well based on the opinions of some:

Why would the rider have crashed when apparently he was taking it easy and there was nothing wrong with his road positioning. I mean it wouldn't possibly be because the speed and road position were factors, oh no it must be because the rider behind made him do it, because everyone rides faster when there is another bike coming up behind because when you are a riding god nobody can ride faster than you and you just have to prove it. Oh the rider behind was an officer of the law well that settles it the rider was innocent because he would not been so fecking stupid if an officer wasn't following him.

Ha ha it really does make me laugh when folks think that they ride as fast as they like when they like and how they like but if an officer who has received a significant level of training tries to follow them then the officer is now riding like an idiot.

And as for keeping other road users safe, doesn't banning this chap keep other road users safe. I agree a bike follow was not the best course of action and the helicopter would have been better.

Mr Rizla · « **Reply #13 on:** 05, October, 2008, 02:15:45 AM »

TG I agree with you with just 1 reservation, i dont understand why the rider was allowed to continue for so long once under persuit. yes i agree if this was a sting and they were setting up a catch further up the road then this takes time however i would have thought that once the video evidence was recorded the cop biker would have backed off to a distance and kept tabs on offenders progress without goading him on.

respect to all

TallGuy · « **Reply #14 on:** 05, October, 2008, 01:01:54 PM »

Thanks, Riz and I agree that the follow should have ended much sooner.

It was not a pursuit as such as a pursuit occurs after a requirement to stop has not been complied with.

The follow resulted in at least 14 minutes of video, editied down to 10 minutes, was in my opinion too much, but when the CJD put ridiciously strict levels of evidence gathering in the path of prosecution the officer was probably just making sure that he captured as much as was possible.

Now comes the tricky bit and what causes a lot of controversy with regard to Police pursuits. To pursue or not. The UK legal system places a duty of care requirement on the officers carrying out the pursuit. They must preserve the safety of the public and the offender. In a case such as this it would have been best if the officer had indicated to the offender a requirement to stop in the hope that the offender realised it was an officer behind and stopped. Game over, everyone happy? well perhaps not the offender.

I also have stated that the use of a bike in hindsight may not have been the best option as the evidence could have been gathered using a helicopter although even when using the helicopter the identity of the offender generally still has to be co-oberated visually by a ground unit.

I do wonder just what the offender did see near the start of the video when he looks behind and sees the officers bike behind him. I guess we will never know.

It easy to sit and critisize the actions of another after the event and hopefully leasons will be learnt from this on both sides.

scorps · « **Reply #15 on:** 05, October, 2008, 02:37:45 PM »

Quote (TallGuy @ Oct. 05 2008,13:01)

I do wonder just what the offender did see near the start of the video when he looks behind and sees the officers bike behind him. I guess we will never know.

if it was Sussex police he would of seen an R1 or a blade

some of the overtakes that the officer took between oncoming cars was a bit dubious officer also crossing double white lines and staying intouch with the gixxer prob made the rider feel safer as he wasnt the only bike going fast and prob thinking to himself well that cant be a copper

best leave the gixxer alone sooner or later he will get pulled or come off best concentrate on gangs and knife crime eh! maybe checking tkmax for selling knives and swords to yoofs

pieman · « **Reply #16 on:** 05, October, 2008, 03:04:47 PM »

'> yeah I read about the TKMaxx thing. amazing!! Talk about reaching your target market!!

naughty lee · « **Reply #17 on:** 05, October, 2008, 05:27:45 PM »

yes, he is a very naughty boy.
he should take leaf out of richards book and ride carefully within the parameters of the law ':devil'

Burger · « **Reply #18 on:** 05, October, 2008, 06:40:55 PM »

Yes thats what I said Lee when I saw it

'>

Dodge · « **Reply #19 on:** 06, October, 2008, 06:08:08 PM »

Kin ell.... just read this ..

surely that should not have gone on so long...

I know Mikey and that was him poodling... just a normal sunday afternoon type ride for most people on this forum..lol..

" this chap is riding at high speed although he's not very competent"

err... If he knew that was a copper he would have been on his tail for.......... not long..

Funny enough it looked like it was the copper that got closest to oncoming vehicles and nearly twatted a few mirrors filtering..

and worst of all his brother Bob will be proper taking the piss outa him for the weak effort ( Bob Collins - Fast bikes test guy and stunter and ex Virgin R6 challenge racer... untill he got banged up for repeated street stunting LOL)

I am going to proper rip the piss outa him next time I see him..

':p'

Mr Rizla · « **Reply #20 on:** 06, October, 2008, 06:58:26 PM »

Cop was using a HD 560 bullet cam or similiar, like the one i have, the lens on it is narrow field so makes width a bit tighter than it realy is hence the cop looks to be taking chances when i know in fact he has at least 6" clearance on each side of handlebar.
I have a similar video of me on the fazer and it looked that close, when in reality i wasnt taking major chances, as if i would

Dodge · « **Reply #21 on:** 06, October, 2008, 07:16:19 PM »

Sorry Riz... technically corrected..

appologies....

err that's a good un for court... M'lud.. I had at least 6".

but a famyard porker riding a motor bike.... is that not dangerous.. ':p'

anyhow

the latest Police footage of reckless tomfoolery

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=iVExD-Fz688 ':rock:'

Burger · « **Reply #22 on:** 06, October, 2008, 07:17:24 PM »

Quote (Dodge @ Oct. 06 2008,18:08)

err... If he knew that was a copper he would have been on his tail for.......... not long..

The police said they had been given the impression the individual would have attempted to avoid capture if he knew he was being pursued PMSL

Dodge · « **Reply #23 on:** 06, October, 2008, 07:20:54 PM »

Mikey woulda lapped him before he got to Lamberhurst .. ':p'

Dodge · « **Reply #24 on:** 06, October, 2008, 07:25:34 PM »

and yet another link shamelessly nicked from Motoforum where it really applies.... and maybe to a few threads and people on every forum ... ':p'

http://foamy.libertech.net/for33.swf

I fuggin wet myself watching this

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Author Topic: Open for debate, dirty tactis or good policing (Read 2260 times)

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