Topic: Police at st. katherine's way (tower bridge)...

[Tino]

Why don't you ring them up and ask?

[eezyrida]

Send them an email asking for this information under the Freedom of Information Act 2000. As a public authority, they have 20 working days to respond.

[MATTP]

Quote (Triggerhappybaby @ Nov. 28 2007,17:24)

One day we will have black boxes in all motor vehicles. The death rate on our roads is a scary statistic and when the political will to do something about it manifests itself, there will be a move to have accurate info about the cause of accidents that is more comprehensive than drugs, alcohol or speed.

This is the main issue I have with this country. You can no longer live a proper life of having a choice in what you do. Why not give people the choice over their own life and let there be an understanding that mistakes do happen and that it is a part of life. I'd be happy to die while living than to die as a 70 year old who never had a chance to live a life. And before it is viewed incorrectly what I'm saying I'd point out that I'm not about living in the wild west where people kill each other, but in a place where people can live life and not live in fear like most are under this shit Government and all their lies!

We are getting pushed into being robots and anything that you can take a choice in doing is being taken away from us. Also, it's a shame that we are sold this under that banner of "safe living". But this keeps the wet blanket twits happy and there is no way of turning around on this road we are racing a long  '>

Maybe best to just give up on fighting these people as soon enough that we get there way and life will be "safe". I only hope it's a life worth living  

[Mr Rizla]

Matt, there is cause for concern with the black box issue and freadom of choice, however we loose that when our actions can potentialy cause pain or suffering to the general public, ie we spank our bike down the road and it takes a granny out at a bus stop, there is no winner in this argument which i also find annoying, anyways you taking easy option and migrating
Kangaroo Power

[Triggerhappybaby]

Quote (MATTP @ Dec. 04 2007,10:50)

Quote (Triggerhappybaby @ Nov. 28 2007,17:24) One day we will have black boxes in all motor vehicles. The death rate on our roads is a scary statistic and when the political will to do something about it manifests itself, there will be a move to have accurate info about the cause of accidents that is more comprehensive than drugs, alcohol or speed. This is the main issue I have with this country. You can no longer live a proper life of having a choice in what you do. Why not give people the choice over their own life and let there be an understanding that mistakes do happen and that it is a part of life. I'd be happy to die while living than to die as a 70 year old who never had a chance to live a life. And before it is viewed incorrectly what I'm saying I'd point out that I'm not about living in the wild west where people kill each other, but in a place where people can live life and not live in fear like most are under this shit Government and all their lies! We are getting pushed into being robots and anything that you can take a choice in doing is being taken away from us. Also, it's a shame that we are sold this under that banner of "safe living". But this keeps the wet blanket twits happy and there is no way of turning around on this road we are racing a long  '> Maybe best to just give up on fighting these people as soon enough that we get there way and life will be "safe". I only hope it's a life worth living

No but Matt, what I'm saying is that if you want proportionate policing of traffic offences for a public safety reason then information about why accidents happen is imperative. No police service that is publicly funded will have the option to go round randomly checking 'back boxes' fitted to cars for the hell of it, but if causal factors of accidents are known from statistical data about the vehicles involved then smart methods of controlling and legislating road use will be more informed.

How many times have we heard that speeding is not the major cause of accidents on the roads? It's an easy hit, we all know that (although I would argue in the case of bike riders that it contributes to making a bad accident worse) because that's where the investment in technology is. If there was technology that assisted in finding the root cause of accidents wouldn't that be a good thing?

[MATTP]

Trigg, I'm sorry but there is something very important that we have missed here. The police at present are acting on the data that they have and will act on this data until they get more. They are collecting data in the areas that they need it for the laws/policy to which they want to force upon us. If they are not using this current data in a productive way for the common man then why are we to think that they will use the new data in such a different way to how they use the current data? And FFS please don't come back with trust as we both know that trust is not forward giving, it is given on backwards looking! (i.e. you only give trust to those that have given you reason - if someone is not using data in a trusted way today it's not like you are going to wake tomorrow and start trusting them to use the new data)

If you want the data to say something then it will. You average out this and you work out forward prjection of other things to give you the answers you need to fight your corner. And if this data is put into question by the people it is always replied to in a way that uses the current or past data to back up the current or forward thinking action.

The problem is not with the collecting of data as I feel this is something that should workout well for the common man. IMO, it is how that data is used to direct the daily life of the common man. If the common man feels better because his car is still outside when he wakes in the morning and the roads are clear for him to get to work then all good. But if the data is used to workout a way to fine him to make up for the short falls in other areas of Government funding (i.e.how the LA's use parking to do it) then I've not only got little interest in helping them collect this data but I hope that it is the policy writers who feel the biggest effect from it!

[eezyrida]

Quote (Triggerhappybaby @ Nov. 28 2007,17:24)

If there was technology that assisted in finding the root cause of accidents wouldn't that be a good thing?

They have this information already. When a fatal accident takes place, or even a serious non-fatal accident, then there is an investigation into the cause. Presumably this results in a report, and that is used to decide whether there should be a criminal prosecution. Unfortunately these reports then appear to get filed and forgotten about.

There are around 30k serious non-fatal road accidents a year, and around 3k fatal accidents. I take on board Tallguy's argument that to create a database of all accidents is completely undo-able in the absence of massive resources to deal with the huge amounts of data involved, but surely there is scope to use only data from fatal accidents to isolate the root causes of these, which would be able to better inform enforcement policy.

This shouldn't take many resources. I am more than happy to do it myself, if it saves lives. I am absolutely amazed if this doesn't already happen.

I should emphasise my argument is not with the police - they do a magnificent job under very difficult circumstances. The problem is the policy set out by the DfT and the Home Office, which makes the police's job far more difficult than it needs to be. I am considering approaching my MP about this.

Being a taxpayer I am very concerned about public resources being misspent on ill-advised "crackdowns" such as these, that actually probably do nothing to achieve what they were set up to do, and as a motorcyclist it just seems bizarre that we are not only unfairly targeted, but are placed in a far more hazardous situation than need be due to a fundamental flaw in the road safety strategy.

[TallGuy]

LOL, I think we gone full circle here. Fatal accident on The Highway where the driver was offsiding. Police mount operation to stop riders they see offsiding. Some would call that reactive policing, but I don't see this argument that it's driven by laws that are being forced upon us to meet targets of any kind, other than perhaps the target of reducing road deaths.

[eezyrida]

Quote (TallGuy @ Dec. 04 2007,22:54)

LOL, I think we gone full circle here.

LOL  sorry TG, yes you're right, I had forgotten David 916's very helpful post earlier in the thread. The broader point I made about using cause data to form policy stands, though, and making this available to the public.

[Mr Rizla]

TG, any stats to prove ANPR reduces accidents, or deaths on the road ? I ask out of genuin interest

[jimc]

I'm sure it's the best tool they (on our behalf) have had for years to frustrate those who drive unlicensed or uninsured.  We have heard very recently of old crimes being resolved - (DNA etc) - about time we took off the roads all those who cannot prove themselves squeaky clean (below 12 points at least).

If however these camera started to be used for 'average speed' tickets and fines I would be setting fire to them.

I don't mind the speed cameras adding data to the police on an ANPR basis - no speed data though please.

I have no personal objection to ANPR.  If an eyeball can do it, why not let it be automated, and let's get the pikeys off the road ASAP.

[MATTP]

Quote (TallGuy @ Dec. 04 2007,22:54)

other than perhaps the target of reducing road deaths.

It's all about numbers TallGuy and you know that! You need them to back up any and all action that you do. For people to think any different is just plan THICK!!!

The issue comes about when they give us half the truth on the numbers they are using. Example of this is total road deaths staying the same or coming down a little. Not one of the Plod crew talk about the large increase in the number of cars on the roads during this time and how this shows up as a positive that the % in terms of people who die on the roads against the number of people using the road is falling, and falling a lot. Problem with that coming out is that you will be sold the old BS line of "if it saves one life then it's worth it" (lol). The fact is that we are all a £ sign to the Government and this is what is driving all events in relation to safety on the roads and all other Government backed ideas (unless there is an election and then it's about votes)

Or am I wrong here Tallguy and the road safety people have an endless bank account to work from and it's just their screw up from not focusing on the job at hand?

[Triggerhappybaby]

But surely you have jut argued yourself into a corner. More vehicles = more accidents? If we are insistent upon our right to ride and drive come what may, and people do fiercely defend their right to motorised transport over public transport, then it has to be regulated accordingly otherwise it would be anarchy, and gridlock. Everyone knows you don't like the government Matt, but honestly they don't do this to piss you off personally '>

[Stu]

No Matt they don't do for your benefit, they bloody well do it to piss me off....
£120.00 fine for having my rear wheels in a junction box for a few seconds??

Thats why I love this place, they keep me on my toes..
Or is that my back foot???

'>

[TallGuy]

Quote (Mr Rizla @ Dec. 05 2007,00:47)

TG, any stats to prove ANPR reduces accidents, or deaths on the road ? I ask out of genuin interest

I can't prove it does through stats, well not in a way that would stand up to an argument, but I can say that it removes vehicles and drivers from the road which are more likely to cause injury accidents either to the driver or some other unfortunate person.
ANPR is used to spot vehicles which are: Stolen, uninsured, RK unlicenced, untaxed, no MOT or flagged as attention required for some other reason. The drivers of such vehicles can take extraordinary risks to aviod being caught and ANPR allows us to spot them before they spot us and plan the most effective and safe way of responding. This in turn reduces the chance of an accident and therefore it could be said ANPR makes life safer for all.

[Flying Scot]

Quote (TallGuy @ Dec. 05 2007,13:32)

Quote (Mr Rizla @ Dec. 05 2007,00:47) TG, any stats to prove ANPR reduces accidents, or deaths on the road ? I ask out of genuin interest I can't prove it does through stats, well not in a way that would stand up to an argument, but I can say that it removes vehicles and drivers from the road which are more likely to cause injury accidents either to the driver or some other unfortunate person. ANPR is used to spot vehicles which are: Stolen, uninsured, RK unlicenced, untaxed, no MOT or flagged as attention required for some other reason. The drivers of such vehicles can take extraordinary risks to aviod being caught and ANPR allows us to spot them before they spot us and plan the most effective and safe way of responding. This in turn reduces the chance of an accident and therefore it could be said ANPR makes life safer for all.

I'm all for this system ANPR if this is what it's only used for. What trouble's me they say 25%of cars in london are without the proper doc's so why is the ANPR not working.Or are they more interested in the easy target's

[Mr Rizla]

TG, Cheers

[MATTP]

I'll tip my hat to Tallguy for taking the time to reply to what has been posted. Please note that in no way is what I'm saying directed towards a person. It's all general and pointed and the people sitting in offices only. None of the good lads and girls walking the street '>

[eezyrida]

Sorry to trawl up this ancient thread but further to the debate on "off-siding", I thought I would let you all know that this morning I was in heavy traffic leading to roadworks on Beulah Hill, Upper Norwood, and I passed on the left of a pedestrian island, and when I got past it I was almost hit by a car that had "off-sided" as they didn't want to wait in traffic before making their right turn. Also over the past year I have, on several occasions, almost collided with bikers that do this.

So, following the excellent advice given by Tallguy, I have seen the error of my ways and no longer do that myself under absolutely any circumstances. And I have seen for myself how dangerous it can be. And there should be no need for it. When car/van/lorry drivers see how law abiding you are, they usually move over to let you through.

I must say that this is not the only instance in which a post from Tallguy has caused me to alter my riding technique, and made me a better rider as a result. So many thanks, Tallguy.